-<xlog server="chat.freenode.net" channel="#existdb" date="2008-02-04">

<message nick="ljo" time="09:35:03.222Z">howdy</message>

<message nick="perig" time="09:37:26.196Z">so, wolf77 has found a nasty problem in our DLN ?</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="10:35:09.96Z">aretter: java.lang.NullPointerException at org.chiba.web.filter.XFormsFilter.init(XFormsFilter.java:59)</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="10:35:15.428Z">any idea what could be wrong?</message>

<message nick="aretter" time="10:35:22.738Z">wolf77: wow that was quick!</message>

<message nick="aretter" time="10:35:36.877Z">wolf77: the new version I sent you?</message>

<message nick="aretter" time="10:37:16.242Z">wolf77: just a thought - with the statistics module as well as recording a nodes frequency how about recording a depth and child count</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="10:37:56.737Z">it already records a depth, expressed as the maximum number of descendant elements</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="10:38:22.502Z">child count does not seem relevant</message>

<message nick="aretter" time="10:42:46.761Z">as the maximum number of descendants?</message>

<message nick="aretter" time="10:42:55.383Z">would that be the count of nodes to ancestor?</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="10:43:24.362Z">no, the number of descendant elements</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="10:43:47.483Z">the optimizer needs some size indicator, so it can calculate the expected cost of a tree traversal</message>

<message nick="aretter" time="10:43:50.908Z">okay i thats not quite what i meant</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="10:44:13.769Z">as far as I could see, this indicator would be sufficient in nearly all cases</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="10:44:38.332Z">child count is a bad indicator since some childs could be large and some small</message>

<message nick="aretter" time="10:44:58.66Z">for a fast path comparrison /a/b/c/d if you were looking for <d> and knew d was 4 deep - the path has 4 segments so you could narrow the operating set very quickly?</message>

<message nick="aretter" time="10:46:01.195Z">Line 59 of XFormsFilter is just throw new ServletException - related to configuring chiba from chiba-config.xml - does your web.xml correctly point to chiba-config.xml?</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="10:49:43.146Z">using a wrong location for chiba-config.xml results in a different exception</message>

<message nick="aretter" time="10:50:01.301Z">hmm, if you add a section to log4j.xml for org.chiba to a log file you should be able to see the stacktrace and exception message</message>

<message nick="aretter" time="10:50:40.134Z">or if you are running from Eclipse, then you could attach the src and set a breakpoint?</message>

<message nick="aretter" time="10:51:03.385Z">its chiba-web svn revision 3062 if you are looking for the src</message>

<message nick="aretter" time="10:51:35.789Z">with the patch that i think was in the email i sent you</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="10:52:44.683Z">aha. it obviously doesn't pick up saxon</message>

<message nick="aretter" time="10:53:27.611Z">did you upgrade to Saxon?</message>

<message nick="aretter" time="10:53:32.818Z">if so it should all work</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="10:53:50.442Z">I upgraded</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="10:53:56.06Z">but it still says: file:/home/wolf/Source/eXistClean/tools/chiba/resources/xslt/xhtml-form-controls.xsl; Line #9; Column #44; "xpath-default-namespace" attribute is not allowed on the xsl:stylesheet element!</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="10:54:15.566Z">which indicates a pre-2.0 XSLT processor</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="10:57:25.364Z">well, I have to go for a while</message>

<message nick="aretter" time="10:59:31.145Z">hmm, i just get a message saying - executing a XSLT 1.0 stylesheet with an XSLT 2.0 processor</message>

<message nick="aretter" time="11:00:02.027Z">im using Saxon 8.7</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="11:00:02.357Z">I'm also seeing "SystemId Unknown; Line #93; Column #91; Could not find function: days-from-duration"</message>

<message nick="aretter" time="11:00:32.238Z">hmm... sure its using Saxon and not Xalan? I normally remove Xalan completely</message>

<message nick="aretter" time="11:00:44.354Z">both of those errors would indicate to me that its using Xalan and not Saxon</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="11:01:03.601Z">sure. but why should it if I configured saxon?</message>

<message nick="aretter" time="11:01:22.026Z">sometimes it seems to choose Xalan, even if you set Saxon in eXists conf.xml</message>

<message nick="aretter" time="11:01:25.731Z">im not quite sure why</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="11:01:28.735Z">sorry, have to go.</message>

<message nick="aretter" time="11:01:35.103Z">i need to look at this in more detail at some point</message>

<message nick="Zizzi" time="12:01:15.32Z">Hello all, I'm working on a collection of TEI-like encoded texts stored into an exist collection. For some reason, when I query the db on the remote server (not the one on my local machine) it will give me only a certain amount of results but not all of them. Does someone know what could be the reason?</message>

<message nick="ljo" time="12:23:01.685Z">And when you do it on the local machine with the the same access method you get another amount?</message>

<message nick="ljo" time="12:24:53.987Z">which is the access method?</message>

<message nick="Zizzi" time="12:25:55.08Z">xmlrcp from php</message>

<message nick="ljo" time="12:31:49.652Z">Narrow it down. Checked that they contain the same data? Other access method? Reindex?</message>

<message nick="Zizzi" time="12:42:35.148Z">they contain the same data and the access method is the same. I'm wondering, though, if there is any possibility to specify the number of returned results in the rcp. I'll have to check that: it could be that on the server there is a different version of the php script.</message>

<message nick="Zizzi" time="12:42:56.598Z">btw: Thanks for answering ljo :)</message>

<message nick="perig" time="13:53:25.511Z">is the test suite OK ? It seems to hand with the latest patches</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="13:57:57.19Z">I'm getting 382 errors here</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="14:01:29.208Z">seems unlikely though</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="14:33:01.588Z">ok, I see some errors now</message>

<message nick="perig" time="14:35:48.495Z">Well, still can explain : outofmemoryExceptions in spatial stuff for sure... maybe more problems</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="14:36:38.473Z">I do have some preceding-sibling issues, which should be caused by my commit this morning</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="14:37:32.626Z">will need more time to look into this though.</message>

<message nick="windauer" time="14:50:16.283Z">Hi together :-)</message>

<message nick="DiZzZz" time="14:53:16.268Z">g'day mates</message>

<message nick="DiZzZz" time="14:57:11.577Z">3 minutes and counting...</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="15:01:47.142Z">Hi everybody</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:02:05.977Z">Hi from snowy Canada!</message>

<message nick="DiZzZz" time="15:02:12.076Z">Hi there all, welcome. we're waiting for adam....</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:02:29.249Z">I was wondering where that laggard is? ;-)</message>

<message nick="DiZzZz" time="15:03:08.072Z">We have 11 confirmations for this online event, one maybe (Dan McCreary)</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:03:36.901Z">Joern...you got your ears on?</message>

<message nick="DiZzZz" time="15:03:42.538Z">I see some new names, at least for me</message>

<message nick="joernt" time="15:04:05.64Z">hello guys - we're on</message>

<message nick="DiZzZz" time="15:04:08.624Z">welcome dudes from a rainy Holland</message>

<message nick="DiZzZz" time="15:04:33.848Z">Shall I ring adam on his cellular></message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:04:56.178Z">Been a few years since I was active on Chiba (& Chicoon) when I was working on the Charles Schwab project (Andrzej here...). Good to hook up again...</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:05:24.757Z">Funny how things come round again. I tried to escape but here I am again. LOL</message>

<message nick="joernt" time="15:05:54.317Z">hi andrzej :)</message>

<message nick="joernt" time="15:06:22.936Z">nice you still haven't found a better solution ;)</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:06:36.184Z">I'm looking forward to doing some interesting things integrating eXist and Chiba in the healthcare integration field.</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:07:00.888Z">Well.....to be honest, we are looking at Orbeon as well, but I have fond memories of Chiba and the crew.</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:07:57.304Z">And the idea of using a Servlet Filter is really cool.</message>

<message nick="DiZzZz" time="15:07:59.527Z">Hi chrisww </message>

<message nick="chrisww" time="15:08:00.449Z">Hi everyone</message>

<message nick="joernt" time="15:08:38.48Z">Yes the filter is a major step forward and was triggered by Adam from the eXist project</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:09:09.332Z">A brilliant step, IMO....though I'm only saying that 'cause Adam isn't on the chat yet. ;-)</message>

<message nick="chrisww" time="15:09:22.56Z">Perhaps Adam is on GMT like me!</message>

<message nick="joernt" time="15:09:24.082Z">* overlap already</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:09:40.535Z">Wouldn't want to swell his limey head any further. LOL</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:10:09.474Z">I can sympathize with the GMT....took me a while to figure out what time this was, what with GMT, Amsterdam and other times that were posted.</message>

<message nick="DiZzZz" time="15:10:39.995Z">google calander should have straightened that out for us...</message>

<message nick="windauer" time="15:10:41.928Z">here he comes ;o)</message>

<message nick="_delirium" time="15:10:43.46Z">sorry just on the phone here something important came up</message>

<message nick="DiZzZz" time="15:11:06.271Z">Okay mr chairman :-)</message>

<message nick="_delirium" time="15:11:23.995Z">may be a bit vacant for a few minutes, no one sent me any agenda items by the way so feel free to start without me</message>

<message nick="_delirium" time="15:11:31.025Z">sorry im still on the phone</message>

<message nick="_delirium" time="15:11:54.857Z">chrisww: hi</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:12:01.486Z">I'm curious as to what the key roadmap for Chiba is for the next year? As in key new features/functions that are planned?</message>

-<message nick="joernt" time="15:12:07.444Z">

<a href="https://www.chiba-xforms.org/cgi-bin/trac.cgi/wiki/ExistMinds">https://www.chiba-xforms.org/cgi-bin/trac.cgi/wiki/ExistMinds</a>

</message>

<message nick="joernt" time="15:12:23.316Z">just a propasal of what quickly came to my mind</message>

-<message nick="_delirium" time="15:12:48.149Z">

chaeron:

<a href="https://www.chibaxforms.org/cgi-bin/trac.cgi/roadmap">https://www.chibaxforms.org/cgi-bin/trac.cgi/roadmap</a>

</message>

<message nick="ljo" time="15:12:57.442Z">the certificate is for localhost...</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:13:02.259Z">Thx....loading the page now...</message>

<message nick="windauer" time="15:13:06.464Z">migration to Saxon / implementation of Dojo 1.0 and to go on implementing XForms 1.1</message>

<message nick="joernt" time="15:13:16.949Z">sorry - i know - you've to confirm that</message>

<message nick="windauer" time="15:13:31.578Z">yes, we have to fix that certificate thing.. still.. </message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="15:13:36.795Z">unfortunately, I could not get Adam's latest version up and running, but as far as I see it, we will be able to run an out-of-the-box chiba with eXist?</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:13:44.436Z">Saxon (XSLT 2.0) and XF 1.1 are good things. Far as I can see the only edge Orbeon has is a bit more 1.1 support.</message>

<message nick="_delirium" time="15:14:10.842Z">wolf77: with some work it should be possible to have an out of the box Chiba with eXist</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:14:53.74Z">I agree, Adam. Something as simple as uncommenting a line in the conf.xml file to turn on XForms would be sweet. Just like some extensions.</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="15:15:05.907Z">what work would be needed? I still saw some absolute paths in your config?</message>

<message nick="joernt" time="15:15:35.286Z">which one? Chiba?</message>

<message nick="_delirium" time="15:15:59.319Z">wolf77: sure paths, Saxon migration for Chiba, better XHTML support</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="15:16:13.909Z">(Adam sent around his patched chiba)</message>

<message nick="_delirium" time="15:16:26.957Z">joernt: my chiba-config.xml file for a patched chiba-web to use with eXist</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:16:27.517Z">The one thing that would drive a lot more adoption of a combined E/C would be availability few good examples to show folks how it all works together.</message>

<message nick="_delirium" time="15:16:36.55Z">yes that would be good</message>

<message nick="_delirium" time="15:17:03.546Z">windauer: its basically chiba-web with the outstanding patch for XFormsFilter that tries to pull all the supporting servlet code into it</message>

<message nick="windauer" time="15:18:09.676Z">ok, like we talked about, I just haven't seen any code yet ;o) And we integrated eXist a little bit different, but what you did sounds better</message>

<message nick="joernt" time="15:18:11.248Z">chaeron: yes agree - some good samples always help to attract people</message>

<message nick="windauer" time="15:18:19.159Z">(we only had the instances within eXist)</message>

<message nick="_delirium" time="15:19:31.207Z">i think i really need to finish the XFormsFilter stuff and setup a demo and docs for everyone</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="15:19:33.42Z">yes, I would go as far as to ship chiba with the eXist distribution (after throwing out cocoon maybe ;-)</message>

<message nick="windauer" time="15:19:34.601Z">if we want to attract people there should also be some kind of workflow.. catchword: rapid development</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:19:37.305Z">The packaging seems a bit off. Why chiba-web if the server side is being handled by eXist?</message>

<message nick="_delirium" time="15:20:06.995Z">chaeron: chiba-core is an API and chiba-web allows generation of a html interface</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:20:15.187Z">Workflow is cool....but I've always found that a few good examples to be worth more.</message>

<message nick="joernt" time="15:20:17.299Z">wolf77: that would be great - i see eXist and Chiba as a perfect pair</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:20:46.599Z">I agree Joern....it's a match made in heaven. Open source heaven of course. ;-)</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="15:21:20.846Z">sure, xforms is a missing building block for nearly all XQuery/XSLT apps, so we should have examples that work out of the box</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:21:43.777Z">XRX (XML, REST, XQuery) is a solid back end foundation and scripting support....all that is missing is a standards based UI framework = XForms. </message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:22:01.681Z">Not much you can't do with such a combo. </message>

<message nick="joernt" time="15:22:22.78Z">that's why i thought about maybe it's more than the two pieces one day</message>

<message nick="_delirium" time="15:22:51.749Z">the missing bit I think is maybe XProc</message>

<message nick="joernt" time="15:22:56.956Z">you can build complete xml apps with this pair</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:23:05.538Z">I think there is value in keeping the code bases distinct for quite some time....both are well established, complex code bases. But we need to agree on the interface going forward.</message>

<message nick="_delirium" time="15:23:11.256Z">Orbeon has a pipeline language (proprietry) that they use to easily build XRX applications</message>

<message nick="_delirium" time="15:23:29.33Z">the interface should be REST of course ;-)</message>

<message nick="joernt" time="15:23:41.206Z">of course</message>

<message nick="_delirium" time="15:23:41.867Z">I agree that they can remain seperate projects, the XFormsFilter is perfect for that</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:24:05.499Z">XProc is interesting, but a typical "from on high" standard. XQuery can handle most of that pretty easily, though a good pipeline impl would be nice to have</message>

<message nick="joernt" time="15:24:33.818Z">sure - they're cleanly seperated and that should stay the same. it's only additional stuff that might ease integration and open comfortable use for a developer</message>

<message nick="_delirium" time="15:24:41.198Z">yes XQuery is great but XProc would allow an easy Lego like construction kit for people wanting to use XForms and eXist</message>

<message nick="joernt" time="15:25:03.658Z">nice idea - but what would it cost to implement?</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:25:05.21Z">I wonder if that wouldn't be a 3rd potential component....an optional Servlet Filter that implements XProc? Very modular approach.</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="15:25:05.511Z">maybe we do not need a full-blown XProc, but just something simpler.</message>

<message nick="_delirium" time="15:25:11.449Z">im thinking ease of use for end-users</message>

<message nick="_delirium" time="15:25:19.58Z">wolf77: WolfProc ;-)</message>

<message nick="joernt" time="15:25:32.868Z">chaeron: i like that idea</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:25:49.861Z">LOL......now that you've named it, we HAVE to implement WolfProc! </message>

<message nick="_delirium" time="15:26:05.562Z">I think XProc could be implemented easily in eXist using StAX most stuff we need is already there - but a cut down version is possible too (*im just a standards whore)</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:26:05.893Z">And keep it as a separate sub-project.</message>

<message nick="joernt" time="15:26:20.393Z">my second forename is really 'wolf' :)</message>

<message nick="chriswww" time="15:26:35.373Z">I think Dan might be interested in converting the examples in his XForms wikibook to use E/C</message>

<message nick="_delirium" time="15:26:56.171Z">sooooo I have to finish the XFormsFilter (soon) then</message>

<message nick="joernt" time="15:27:01.208Z">that would be a great showcase</message>

<message nick="joernt" time="15:27:42.754Z">i'd also like to propose that we have a regular meeting 'here' to discuss</message>

-<message nick="chaeron" time="15:27:54.58Z">

Wolves:

<a href="http://tarafrost.com/galleries/BearCreek1.html">http://tarafrost.com/galleries/BearCreek1.html</a>

.... 4th pic from the top!

</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="15:27:56.954Z">Concerning XProc.... For AtomicWiki I already implemented a controller servlet which calls XQuery code to redirect HTTP requests. I planned to extend this with concepts found in Rails or other REST frameworks, i.e. allow pre-/post- functions.</message>

<message nick="joernt" time="15:27:58.976Z">obviously there are lots of good </message>

<message nick="joernt" time="15:28:00.418Z">ideas</message>

<message nick="_delirium" time="15:28:24.161Z">joernt: you mentioned some problems with paths for AJAX requests with my XFormsFilter patch I sent you - I think if we could pickup from there that would be good</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:29:15.941Z">I'ld like to see XProc impl be an independent component, which could easily be used for other things without eXist or Chiba. Better penetration that way...more entry points for potential users of the whole stack.</message>

<message nick="joernt" time="15:29:16.962Z">yep - that concerns upload</message>

<message nick="joernt" time="15:29:31.192Z">agree</message>

<message nick="windauer" time="15:29:41.996Z">chaeron: agree</message>

<message nick="joernt" time="15:29:56.286Z">as adam said - should be like Lego</message>

<message nick="_delirium" time="15:30:17.975Z">chaeron: I think that could be difficult, implementing in eXist using the internal API's via StAX would be easier</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="15:30:23.292Z">well, sometimes it is desirable to have direct XQuery access to the db instead of passing stuff in memory</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:31:02.015Z">Adam...sure it might be easier....but having it as a separate component (Servlet Filter) would be so flexible, architecturally, I think it would make sense.</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="15:31:41.559Z">chaeron: there will be third-party XProc implementations like that soon</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:31:56.509Z">Root of all evil: premature optimization! It's easy to tighten the coupling down the road if needed. The reverse is not as likely or doable.</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="15:32:26.48Z">the risk I see is that people will start doing complex things in XProc and then complain it's not performant</message>

<message nick="_delirium" time="15:32:28.142Z">yup - ServletFilters arent the answer to everything - im not talking about optimization - more about utilizing an already good and stable architecture</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:32:29.834Z">I'll volunteer to research what's out there in the way of open source XProc....maybe there is an impl that we could use.</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="15:32:51.874Z">Jim Fuller started an XProc impl in XQuery</message>

<message nick="_delirium" time="15:32:57.131Z">chaeron: cool, someone needs to pickup XProc or other pipleline stuff</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:33:38.698Z">I've done a lot of work in Cocoon in the past, and have some familiarity with XProc, so it might make sense for me to take a look, then report back to the group.</message>

<message nick="_delirium" time="15:33:42.673Z">I guess there may need some additional XQuery extensions for the full XProc but probably not much as we already have some good ones</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:34:17.561Z">That's an interesting suggestion....XProc as an extension module to XQ....hmmmm.....</message>

<message nick="joernt" time="15:34:54.521Z">but besides XProc - what are the planned usages of XForms in eXist?</message>

<message nick="joernt" time="15:35:17.352Z">would you e.g. like to handle some of your own UI with Chiba maybe?</message>

<message nick="_delirium" time="15:35:24.822Z">ohh that would be nice</message>

<message nick="_delirium" time="15:35:34.075Z">rewrite the admin app and sandbox to use XForms :-)</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:35:36.258Z">I don't see much short term value in converting the eXist UI (which works) into XForms, except as examples.</message>

<message nick="joernt" time="15:35:39.352Z">i think the admin interface to the db</message>

<message nick="_delirium" time="15:35:43.497Z">esp with the fck editor stuff</message>

<message nick="_delirium" time="15:36:26.656Z">I did start on a new Admin interface at one point the current one is Java but I looked at GWT but lost interest - a new web based one in XQuery and XForms would be amazing (from my point of view)</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:36:28.569Z">The key benefit I see of the partnership is to enable a highly productive, standards based, XML development stack. </message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="15:36:30.111Z">joernt: yes sure. I was just waiting for Adam's stuff so I could start a new admin interface.</message>

<message nick="joernt" time="15:37:17.255Z">chaeron: *that* is a great sample or not?</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:37:58.431Z">Re-implementing a UI that already works has marginal benefit in the short term. Unless there are new features in the UI that need implementation, have to weigh it against other things on the dev plate is all I'm saying.</message>

<message nick="joernt" time="15:38:07.523Z">further one day Chiba might be a generic editor for all the xml you store in eXist</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:38:36.983Z">Now THAT is a way cool idea, Joern. Having a built-in XML editor would be very powerful. Oxygen in miniature so to speak.</message>

<message nick="joernt" time="15:38:43.742Z">of course - but for optimization time is too early ;)</message>

<message nick="wolf77" time="15:39:33.219Z">so what could we expect from chiba to make app development simpler?</message>

<message nick="joernt" time="15:39:39.718Z">well, we should be aware that there are restrictions when it comes to mixed content</message>

<message nick="chaeron" time="15:40:34.222Z">Joern: How confident are you on the milestones for Chiba? More specifically XForms 1.1 support in Core 1.5 in two months?</message>

<message nick="_delirium" time="15:40:34.863Z">yes I think providing XForms to the app developers is the greatest point of interest - certainly why I started on this - as I develop web-apps on top of eXist</message>